ESU: Manual Notching - suggestion for a solution (2024)

juergen_lindner_esu

Dear Mr. Draper ,

I am Juergen from ESU. Of course, we are monitoring this list and we
try to listen to our customers. Thereofore we tried to find a way of
implementing the manual notching function into our decoders.

The problem with manual notching I see is that if we have only manual
notching, the engine speed will stay at idle even at very high train
speed if you do not manually increase the notches. This means that
the operator has a lot of work to do if he wants to run his trains...

Therefore, I want to discuss another idea we had regarding this
feature.
We want to add a CV which allows you to modify the "weight" of the
train. Normally, this CV will have the value of 128. This will result
in the same behaviour as you know now: The notchings are synchronized
with the speed of the train.
If you increase the value of this CV, you can simulate a "heavy"
train. This will result in the engine reaching the top notch (most
often: 8) at a lower speed. By setting the CV to value 255, you can
reach the top notch, while the engine is moving at 20% of max. speed.

If you lower the CV, you will simulate a "light" train or a train
going downhill. So even if the locomotive has a high speed, the notch
will remain at a lower level.

As most of the DCC command stations allow for Operations Mode
programming (Programming on the Main), you could change the value of
the CV even during operation (and hear the difference also, of
course).

By doing this, we could have full control over the notches if the user
wants to have it, but without the need to adjust the throttle each
time. Another benefit is that we will not need any function keys for
this feature.
The only drawback I see is that the DCC system has to offer
Operations Mode Programming to get the full function.

Please let me know what you think about this idea. Any comment is
welcome.

Best regards

Juergen Lindner

ESU LLC
Juergen Lindner
112 Pine Ave E
Upsala MN 56384
Phone: 320 573 - 4300
Fax : 320 573 - 2700
juergen.lindner@...

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--- In loksound@..., "barry_draper" <barry_draper@h...>
wrote:

--- In loksound@..., "Chicago Terminal & Transfer"
<cttrr@y...> wrote:

I have 30 engines and I am trying to figure out which sound

decoder

to buy, the lack of manual notching is a deal breaker for me, I

was

at the train show in Milwakuee and talked to the mfg. that were
there and expressed my interest and MRC said that their next gen.
sound would and Digitrax said that it was under consideration. I

am

looking at spending a fair amount of money and a lot of time so I
want it to sound right. Ultimately (next 2-3 years)I am going

over

100 engines so I want to stick with one brand to save time and
learning.

I'm with you on this. First, hopefully ESU has someone monitoring
this list, and maybe they'll listen to us. At least today's

Loksound

decoders can be upgraded with new software. I hope ESU will send a
programer to the USA to listen to some US prototype units starting

on

a mountain grade!

But, right now its just too soon to make a decision: I don't hold

out

much hope for MRC decoders, but soon we will have three new

choices.

The Tusnami diesel decoders, the Digitrax SoundFX, and the QSI
(available as a decoder from SLT) with new software. Until these

are

on the market there is no way to say what is going to be the best

choice.

Barry Draper

I like the fact that you guys are listening, thank you. My issue
with using a CV to control the sound rate is that when switching a
yard I do not want to change the CV everytime I pickup a new cut of
cars. If I shove 30 cars into a track then back away light and then
pickup 15 cars all three of those moves would entail very different
amount work by the engine and VERY different amounts of acceleration
for a given RPM level of the prime mover. Soundtrax allows you to
turn manual notching on and off using a CV, maybe you guys could do
the same. It is my experience that 75% of the sound owners switch
to manual nothing once it is showed to them.

--- In loksound@..., "juergen_lindner_esu"
<juergen.lindner@l...> wrote:

Dear Mr. Draper ,

I am Juergen from ESU. Of course, we are monitoring this list and

we

try to listen to our customers. Thereofore we tried to find a way

of

implementing the manual notching function into our decoders.

The problem with manual notching I see is that if we have only

manual

notching, the engine speed will stay at idle even at very high

train

speed if you do not manually increase the notches. This means that
the operator has a lot of work to do if he wants to run his

trains...

Therefore, I want to discuss another idea we had regarding this
feature.
We want to add a CV which allows you to modify the "weight" of the
train. Normally, this CV will have the value of 128. This will

result

in the same behaviour as you know now: The notchings are

synchronized

with the speed of the train.
If you increase the value of this CV, you can simulate a "heavy"
train. This will result in the engine reaching the top notch (most
often: 8) at a lower speed. By setting the CV to value 255, you

can

reach the top notch, while the engine is moving at 20% of max.

speed.

If you lower the CV, you will simulate a "light" train or a train
going downhill. So even if the locomotive has a high speed, the

notch

will remain at a lower level.

As most of the DCC command stations allow for Operations Mode
programming (Programming on the Main), you could change the value

of

the CV even during operation (and hear the difference also, of
course).

By doing this, we could have full control over the notches if the

user

wants to have it, but without the need to adjust the throttle each
time. Another benefit is that we will not need any function keys

for

this feature.
The only drawback I see is that the DCC system has to offer
Operations Mode Programming to get the full function.

Please let me know what you think about this idea. Any comment is
welcome.

Best regards

Juergen Lindner

ESU LLC
Juergen Lindner
112 Pine Ave E
Upsala MN 56384
Phone: 320 573 - 4300
Fax : 320 573 - 2700
juergen.lindner@l...

The purpose of manual notching is to replicate the prototype more accurately.

Consider a layout with steep grades. A real loco pulling heavy tonnage up a grade may have his loco up to Run 8 but still be crawling up the grade. This cannot be replicated with automatic notching, or at least not easily. It would be far easier to implement manual notching controlled by a couple Functions, one for notch up and one for notch down.

======================================================
Youth & Enthusiasm are no match for Age & Treachery !!
======================================================

Chris Shinn Winnipeg, Canada

--- A TabletPC Evangelist ---
-- Doin' it in Digital Ink --

Ernie wrote:

I can smell the burning traction motors from here...... I wonder if we can replicate that by burning a bit of wire insulation...
Chris, if I cannot find a good solution for this manual notching, I will be reprogramming my loksound decoders for steam, and retrofitting Tsunamis in my diesels once they are released.
Ernie L.
Gloucester, Ma

Chris Shinn <cnshinn@...> wrote:
The purpose of manual notching is to replicate the prototype more
accurately.

Consider a layout with steep grades. A real loco pulling heavy tonnage
up a grade may have his loco up to Run 8 but still be crawling up the
grade. This cannot be replicated with automatic notching, or at least
not easily. It would be far easier to implement manual notching
controlled by a couple Functions, one for notch up and one for notch down.

======================================================
Youth & Enthusiasm are no match for Age & Treachery !!
======================================================

Chris Shinn
Winnipeg, Canada

--- A TabletPC Evangelist ---
-- Doin' it in Digital Ink --

Ernie wrote:

Wouldn't an easier solution be just to assign the notches to the
throttle knob position rather than to the speed of the loco?
That way we can program in momentum and have a "light" or "heavy"
response depending on how fast and far we advance the throtle knob?

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barry_draper

--- In loksound@..., "Ernie" <mysterytrain3700@y...> wrote:

Wouldn't an easier solution be just to assign the notches to the
throttle knob position rather than to the speed of the loco?
That way we can program in momentum and have a "light" or "heavy"
response depending on how fast and far we advance the throtle knob?

I have a couple of comments: First, do what Soundtraxx has done and
allow maunal notching to be enabled (or disabled) with a CV, so the
end user can choose. Maybe you could even use CV57 or CV58 which are
not used with diesels. With manual notching turned on two function
buttons (up & down) would have to be programmed for those who want to
use it.

For those of us that would prefer a somewhat automatic notching, I
love Ernie's idea. Would it be possible to tie notching to the rate
of change in speed steps? If I want run 8 before the engine moves, I
would rapidly advance from speed step zero to say step 50. With some
momentum programed in the motor would respond slowly and allow me to
bring the speed step back down without reducing the sound notch if I
did it slowly. When I want to back down the sound I would do a fast
reduction in speed steps and this would notch down the sound. Is this
possible? It doesn't seem too hard to add to the software for a
future release.

Barry Draper

Jason McNair

Juergen,

Congratulations on being the first from ESU to post to the LokSound Group. It is great to see you on-line after so many beneficial off-line conversations together.

My suggestion is slightly different to what was suggested by the others, and allows for the best of all that has been brought forward so-far.

Have two function keys that can be assigned as (Notch_on/Notch_up) and (Notch_down/Notch_off)
What would happen is that the first use of Notch_up would enable manual notching. Subsequent uses would notch up the engine sound. Notch_down would notch the engine down until it reached idle, further actuvation of this botton would return the loco to automatic notching mode.
Alternatively, changing a CV would enable these two funtions to serve as (run_heavy) and (run_light) . . . subsequent presses of either of these keys would increase or decrease the simulated load on the loco. Of course, the load could be manually set via a second CV as well, and changing the load response via the function keys would also change the CV, although in blocks of say . . . 10-16 maybe?

How does this idea strike you guys? I think this would not only enable Juergen's excellent idea to come to fruition, but would also add additional functionallity beyond the SoundTraxx concept of manual notching. . . . by allowing the loco to be dynamically taken from automatic to manual modes of notching . . . and back again. This (as well as Juergen's dynamic weighting) would DEFINITLY be a first for Sound Equiped Decoders, and a high selling point as well.

Back to the gang - your thoughts?

Best Regards
Jason McNair
Moderator - LokSound Yahoo Group

juergen_lindner_esu wrote:

Michel van den Hof ( Gmail - trains )

Dear Jürgen,

The way ESU diesel sound now operate notching is more resembling a Diesel
Hydraulic loco, instead of a much wider spread use of Diesel Electric
loco's.

I do like the option given below by Barry the best way to go, and the most
prototypical in control too.
Wouldn't need any function assignments/mapping either or altering CV's or
using POM while operation.
I can be done automatically, responding on the rate you change speedsteps.
Eventually, in a CV, you could program the rate of respons, with different
settings for loco size's or train wights.
Isn't there a way with reading BEMF values, to determine ( at all kinds of
set speedsteps ) if the train is heavy/light, going up a grade or downhill,
and then automatically responding in different notching behaviour ?

BTW
2 other options I do like to be added to future decoders are :

A
An option of operating engine sound ( reving up, etc ) without movement.
Like after startup, for warming the engine or, when in maintenance, so you
can mimic engine testing without movement.

B
An option to set time ( or already fixed by ESU ) for first movement after
speed command.
And very important : with and without sound the same waiting time !!!!!
When operating a Loksound decoder without sound, you get immediate respons
when giving speed commands.
With sound on, you first get the sound sequence to let it behave
prototypical before actual movement.
This is fine in itself, but is a pain when consisting engines of different
prototypes or trying to drag other loco's ( that still need to be programmed
into the consist ).
Dragging silent loco's let's them push the one loco at the front at the
first speed commands.
Consisting loco's of different prototypes gives different sound sequence
lenghts before movement, and thus no matching in movemment either.

Despite working so hard on speed table matching.

Kind Regards,
Michel van den Hof, Netherlands
http://www.shedcombe-upon-frome.co.uk/

Sent from my ( Gmail - trains ) account
michel.vandenhof.trains@...
.
On 1/16/06, barry_draper <barry_draper@...> wrote:

For those of us that would prefer a somewhat automatic notching, I
love Ernie's idea. Would it be possible to tie notching to the rate
of change in speed steps? If I want run 8 before the engine moves, I
would rapidly advance from speed step zero to say step 50. With some
momentum programed in the motor would respond slowly and allow me to
bring the speed step back down without reducing the sound notch if I
did it slowly. When I want to back down the sound I would do a fast
reduction in speed steps and this would notch down the sound. Is this
possible? It doesn't seem too hard to add to the software for a
future release.

Barry Draper

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Peter Lefley

I'm pleased to see ESU is reading the posts here. Although manual
notching is a desirable feature, I can see it all getting a bit
complicated. My vote would be for a function button that uncoupled the
sound from the BEMF drive and assigned a throttle to the sound so it
could be altered at will. This would be especially useful with Digitrax
double throttles where one could be used for the motor and one for
sound.

Another couple of requests for Loksound: 16 bit sound and 22Khz
sampling as well as connections for the Lenz Power 1 module please!

Peter

Alan B. Pearce

My suggestion is slightly different to what was suggested
by the others, and allows for the best of all that has
been brought forward so-far.

Have two function keys that can be assigned as
(Notch_on/Notch_up) and (Notch_down/Notch_off)

Also for those who are happy with the auto notching, they could un-assign
these function keys, and use them for some other function ...

I think the idea of being able to notch up/down at a standstill would be greatly appreciated by the Amtrak/Via HEP crowd out there...

Ernie

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Michel van den Hof ( Gmail - trains )

Ofcourse it can rev up stationary, something I mentioned earlier, sadly
missing as an option on the Loksound decoders.

Kind Regards,
Michel van den Hof, Netherlands
http://www.shedcombe-upon-frome.co.uk/

Sent from my ( Gmail - trains ) account
michel.vandenhof.trains@...
.

however it happens, I hope there is some way to link throttle notches to speed steps as mentioned earlier. That way, with a little momentum dialed in, it is almost set it and forget it..

But whatever happens, in order to continue to use Loksound decoders on diesels, I need SOME kind of way to make this thing more prototypical.
Ernie

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Michel van den Hof ( Gmail - trains )

I think you will get the best automatic prototypical sound behaviour, if you
will let reving up be influenced by the number of speed steps between the
actual speedstep the loco is driving, and the speedstep set on your
controller.
The bigger the diffrence, the higher the reving up, the harder the engine is
working.
If you do nothing, the difference in speedsteps will get smaller, and the
engine can ease down ( a bit ).
If you use appropriate inertia settings on CV3 and CV4, you're really at the
( sound ) throttle when this can be implemented.
You can easily alter your speedstep setting on the throttle, in how much you
are above the actual speedstep the train is doing, to iunfluence the amount
of pwer applied in the sound processing.

With a simple CV you could alter the amount of progressiveness.
In other words, how strong is this effect, applied by difference in
speedstep, between throttle and loco.

Kind Regards,
Michel van den Hof, Netherlands
http://www.shedcombe-upon-frome.co.uk/

Sent from my ( Gmail - trains ) account
michel.vandenhof.trains@...
.

--- In loksound@..., Chris Shinn <cnshinn@s...> wrote:

The purpose of manual notching is to replicate the prototype more
accurately.

Consider a layout with steep grades. A real loco pulling heavy

tonnage

up a grade may have his loco up to Run 8 but still be crawling up

the

grade. This cannot be replicated with automatic notching, or at

least

not easily. It would be far easier to implement manual notching
controlled by a couple Functions, one for notch up and one for

notch down.

======================================================
Youth & Enthusiasm are no match for Age & Treachery !!
======================================================

Chris Shinn
Winnipeg, Canada

Chris is absolutely correct. The response from our friend at
Loksound indicates that he is missing the point regarding manual
notching. Let me point something else out.

In addition to the example Chris mentioned regarding running a heavy
train up a grade, there's an even more compelling reason that manual
notching is an absolute must, especially if you're operating Alcos.

If you've observed Alco road switchers, and you're familiar with the
way an Alco RS2 or RS3 loads up, you know that from a dead stop,
often times the guy at the throttle throws it right into notch 8.
The prime mover responds INSTANTLY. With the 244 prime mover, this
results in a thick, throaty gasp that is of course accompanied by a
belch of black smoke. Meanwhile, depending on what it's shoving, the
locomotive itself is, initially, at a crawl, until momentum is
gained.

I have three Proto MLW RS10's equipped with Soundtraxx Alco sound.
The RS10's were internally equivalent to the RS3, powered by the 244
prime mover. They are all set up for manual notching. The effect is
extremely realistic. It requires just a bit of coordination, but
becomes second nature. I'll often put speed step to 2 or 3, just to
get the unit to creep, then activate the throttle with several quick
pulses on the F5 key, then down with F6 to get that classic Alco
throttle "goosing" up and down. it's absolutely killer! You leave
your speed control at whatever low speed desired (perhaps a scale 5
MPH for example), and work the throttle up and down INDEPENDANT of
speed. In the real world, a locomotive's speed doesn't change
instantaneously, but the prime mover reponse can, and does.

If anyone,including our friends from Loksound would like to see an
example of this, please check the files section under Mike Confalone
RS10 example. I'll attempt to post a short MPEG movie clip that
demonstrates the manual notching. Unfortunately it's only 15
seconds, but it should illustrate the point.

Bottom line message to Loksound. In order for serious modelers to
buy your product (me included) you MUST be able to seperate the
speed of the locomotive from the response of the prime mover (manual
notching), AND with automatic notching, you MUST be able to
experience all 8 nothches at low scale speeds. Without these
features, the greatest recordings in the world don't amount to a
hill of beans.

Mike Confalone - interested but show me what you can do!
Goffstown, New Hampshire